long history. and many others developed out of these points as mentioned. a desire for unity. what happened over the last 30 years is as these movements have evolved they have become more violent and they have not only become more violent but as he pointed out, they have tried to return to an originalist sort of school of thought in islam that's been combined with the use of modern technology. so it seems a bit of a contradiction but actually, we've seen the evolution of these movements tried to return to this originalist school of islamic thought as he mentioned that refers to the first three generations of muslims after islam was founded. yet they are using modern technology and this very combustible combination of these two things has produced this

very violent movement. and this is also not just a sunni phenomenon. many of the clerics emphasized the islamic awakening. there's always been this feeling among sunnis and shia that there's a need for a islamic era that would unify the shia and sunni that would be an islamic awakening. unfornlttunately that has not happened and we've seen a period of secatrianism that's completely escalated the violence in the middle east. so this need for some sort of islamic awakening has always been the dream, as you explained. but unfortunately as a result of the arab uprising.

as a result of for a quest for identity, for unity, for dignity, unfortunately these two communities within the islamic tradition have not come together. so the question i would like to start with -- should i start with you. >> start your question. i'll go from there. >> the question i wanted to ask is what do you think it is about morocco that's been able to succeed and achieve the progress both of you have outlined that we haven't seen in other countries, especially in a country such as egypt which of course as you mentioned has a long tradition of the muslim brotherhood. other islamic groups. can you explain to us why do you think that morocco has been so successful? >> sure.

>> thank you for joining us today and for your very thoughtful and thorough remarks and for peter for putting this together and to the deputy foreign minister for her informative comments. as peter eluded to i'm a part of a middle east strategy task force that the atlantic council is organizing in conjunction with a number of other experts and other institutions around town and in the region and we're trying to look at what's going on in the middle east now and drive toward a consensus on the strategic approach going forward. all of that is to say that i'm in question mode and so i have for you really just a set of questions that we can maybe

build aupon. and the first is i know that you have done such interesting work with the radicalizations such as curriculum reform and i'd be interested in hearing more about that and in particular what you're most excited about and what you think are sort of best practices that others can adopt whether here in the middle east or where ever that might be. you talked about the need for passionate individuals. if they're going to counter the narrative that you need very independent minded, very creative, very resourceful people that are really committed to the cause.

that's often hard in the region where politics and religion are so tightly meshed. i wonder if you can speak to that. just the ability of them to be independent voices at a moment like this where politics are so tightly held. it's clear you see positive things happening in morocco but i would like to ask your assessment of the rest of the region. where are you seeing positive things happening. where are you concerned? as you look to partners where are you finding the most interesting partners? we have seen a number of new organizations rise up just to mention one i know that in the uae there's a council of religious elders that's been

formed. there's been institutional change. which institutions are you finding most promising and interesting? where do you see scholars coming together in a meaningful way to try to counter the messages? and finally, just your assessment of sort of the trajectory over the long-term. is this something wrer going to be confronted with for a long long time? is this something that will grow bigger rather than smaller in the next decade? what do you see as it's likely shelf life and how long will it remain a problem? thank you. >> thank you. thank you for those insightful questions. i would take it from what you said earlier when you talk about those between official islam and

popular interpretation of islam, this is a very crucial item because definitely the belief was there. it was not present enough and those institutions official islam and the region suffered from matters. the first is satisfaction. we are there. we are the scholars of islam. the way we pronounce words proves it.

and our organization endorses it and we are there. there is no need for those institutions in the previous find to tackle the comprehensions and i would like here to highlight the fact that innovation and renovation was also present since the 1900 when they came and was tackling this very specific issue. when talking about the scholars there's a need of renewal of this. but this did not shake those fix fixated state of minds enough to generate the change. it gave birth to some dynamics

but they were not enough. where as the holders of the dream of purity produced some very simple, simplistic discourse that was comprehensible and it was accessible by everybody. islam in the 1900 period, after the rise of the state in alliance with mohammed descendents, the discourse became very simple. so no scholars no quotations. we can have access to the text and then we have the authority to interpret the text. there's no need to be in the other sciences of islam. just go in there and you'll get it and you'll have some organizations of big scholars who would assist you if you do

fail and who would produce some very accessful booklet that would not be very hard to understand. this is the islam that has crossed an infiltrated populations. through pilgrimage and through offered free copies of millions and millions and millions of copies that were there in the region and readable adopted by them. they were not any more willing to go to the extended versions of the books of knowledge of islam and this was there and tackling some burning issues in daily life. this was the understanding. so the first was this. the second is that when socialism came in the region,

this institution suffered official religious institution suffered many sorts of humiliation. so it lost it's credibility. it was not as respected as it was before. when the late decays of the 19th century started to combat each other, unfortunately, they were brandish in the fact that you are on payrolls and we are independent. we received it from the population and we do not depend on any other official institution. so we are free mined and you are not simply. this also relinquished some of the credibility of this

institution. the fourth stigmata was the fact that, well, the system of offering dignity to those scholars was not of the most efficient. the payrolls were very poor and many of those scholars were constrained to look how to complete the expenses of the month. it was not offered by the institutions. so this was not generating enough in those institutions which wakened those institutions and now there's a crucial need to avoid the waste. i was talking about thousands hundreds of thousands of those officials. we need really some capacities and some empowerments in those

institutions. why? morocco? well, we had the chance just strategically speaking to be the far west before those wonderful lands were discovered by the european and the asian mind. because they existed and people were here and they were discovered by those mines and cultures as everybody knows, 1492. this far west position gave us the luxury to witness the title waves, erupting from the epicenter of the world and then not arriving to our shores until they were mild somehow. we have h the time to

deconstruct the concepts erupting from the center of the world. and we did it as frank sinatra would like to say we did it our way somehow. we made the difference between islam and muslims in morocco. we made the difference very early. we said we are welcome in islam but we are refuseing all those that came afterwards. we have our own dynasties and even some extremism in this regard. we would like to go into details but we made the difference and this is why they never came in morocco. so we had our own proper school of thoughts in morocco religiously wise and also we succeeded in solving a very

crucial problem. which is the fact that they're having this difference. the descendents of the prophet needs to be in power. this is a condition for the legitimacy of the power. and the sunnis would not care much about this. but in morocco we made the junction and we have descendants of the prophets in power. this is how it started. and since then this was the case. so we did not live this that was lived in damascus or baghdad or in the other capitals of the region. it contributed along with the

choices. the three choices i mentioned in a ritual and contributed in some of the problems that are linked in the region. i do evaluate very much the atlantic council initiative which is to approach the problem in a multidimensional manner. to realize that there are links of the chain and pieces of the puzzle and each piece has its own in engineering and it's own architecture that needs to be tackled on its own. and then there is a concern of harmony and coherence between all of the pieces. the terms, i'm talking here comprehension wise. this goes along with it and along with research and collection of data and analyze of data and then extraction and

deduction of what could be solutions. this is what think tanks do at the end of the day but this proficiency that you eluded to is very efficient and definitely would make some difference in tackling the extremists issue. i also in term of the best practices, well i'd like to highlight the fact that we do believe in the celebration of efforts in morocco. nothing comes easy. we need to construct it from scratch and have the passion to irrigate it and look after it and clean it and follow it up. we cannot just initiate and then leave it.

we need to follow up and for this at certain points we have been suffering because they would not find the scholars that we do and we would need to build them up. scholars that would see the text in it's originally and details and also the context in which this text is to be implemented and make the suctionjunction. as the text has its own sciences to be understood, the context has its own sciences to be understood and it's hard to find them in one person and this gave us many problems because you will have many adjustments to do to make the text fit in the context without losing it's originality because it will be attacked by those that do claim

the dream of purity and this is what they are very good at so we need to avoid it by making sure that this takes some celebration of the ifrt and respect for the people who would do it. also those people when we do train them they're having offers from other countries and other places and very handsome offers. so to conserve them is not something very easy. so this is another problem. we're trying to tackle as well. they would come from the windows of unity. islam is islam and if anywhere it is served it is served.

and then we are in the era of the internet. i can work from distance and keep up with what you're doing and where as now it needs some daily, daily tacklement and daily work and this is why i do come to your second question because there is passion in the other shore of the trust square. passion is very vibrant there and this is why it is very contagious. you can not face such a passion with a fade attitude that is used to be there and wisdom

imposed an attitude of serinity which is useful at some point but efficiency needs to be with serenity. otherwise on its own it could be efficiency three which is not desired results. one of the wise people of a foreign institution said you want to talk to tigers. do not end rabbits. send tigers. so we need some tiger trained good scholars to go and talk with those tigers because we do perceive and this is a shift that needs to be performed, we do see this as a disease in comprehension and understanding because they simply are not getting it. they do have this very big

desire for unity, purity, dignity. it's there and it's a fact. and everybody has the same desire but this is not the way and we need to be very good in demonstrating that this is not the way. and give an alternative. this is the way. then it needs to be working on the field to be touchable. tangible. and this is what is morocco is trying to do. we're trying to say it's possible. look. we are not there yet but we are getting to it. this is why in morocco we do recruit to come and once you phase them you pretend that you master the text. let's verify this and humbly and

lovingly we need to demonstrate that they do not master the text and these are the shortcomings. this is what they need to complete and we are here to complete this. to do that to be able to do that, you need to build up some authority. otherwise, nobody will listen to you. who are you to pretend you can verify my knowledge of the text. this is why previous work was done. to produce, to publish. to create initiatives. to present studies and propose solutions for the burning issues. talk about human rights in islam. talk about women issues in islam. talk about extremism in islam. talk about global warming in islam but in a very sound manner that would be recognized, adopted by the masses. once you create this authority

and you have a crew of scholars that's charismatic and that do have men and women the ora to convince and to say let's verify and then to be listened to then you can start the work. so you need to snatch recognition from them. not to come and impose on because the time of the states that would impose a scholar as being a scholar even though if he is not or she is not a scholar is over. so now it's touchable and tangible authorities. after this we would direct the context. the context is intricate and complexified. what are your tools to decipher the context. to understand it and to know

it's dimensions? do you have the keys for that? what are the keys? i'm talking history. name it. all those keys that would allow you to understand the context. then some respects will be triggered and then we can talk. then we can talk. but it's a true tango that needs to be danced before convincing those tigers to join the crew. also the question before last yes, there is hope in the region because the awareness is there. the awareness is there and we as humans homosapiens we have in our genes competitiveness. we love to compete and to measure ourselves to others. so you are doing so we can do the same.

well as we'll love it. and we cherish it and appreciate it. this is what we are targeting as well. let's trigger some competition over there. and then, people would measure themselves and would look at your practices. if they're good, they would be adopted and this is what we are aspiring for. we do not want in morocco ourselves to be the redemptors. we just want to be a part of what crossed from extremely large to tiny to very tiny. i'm quoted thomas friedman here. so there are some good practices. unfortunately sometimes there are politics.

there is insulting of intelligences. some countries would like to prevail and be the ones that are doing it and this is for the fame of our country. we're putting all dollars in there so we need some recognition. why you? why them? why not me? you know and this ruins it at some point. this is why we need some psychological companion to make it happen. this is not very easy to make it. it takes some expertise there. so good things are happening in the region but there is still some work to do. and it takes some very sound realism but this sound realism should not take away from new hope and confidence. and this is another equation to

solve of course. the last question, yes. dash is the muy tated version of it which is the muy tated version of the muslim brotherhood which is the mutated version of the movements movements. in the dimension you had the movement and the southern movement and the other movements that were quite alike with the slight difference that well, those movements claim to detain the secrets of the knowledges of the descendents of the prophet

but in the region it was there. it's the mutation of all of those aspiration. it has many ancestors in the region. dash now has its efficiency because of three main factors. the first one is this venom of fear that spread in the psyches of the world. in the region there's 30,000. you can count those. we are talking in a world of 7 billion homo sapiens. are we not able to face this? but the venom of fear just impedes you, stops you from taking initiatives.

because you lose over 50% of your capacities. once this fear becomes rotten fear it's more dangerous to cure and there are bargain on this they're relaying on that how to do that. they are very accurate used in satire. movies in hollywood could do but you're not spending putting dollars in this direction. video games could do but we are not doing in our job. and this we're just restricting ourselves to this very serious format of discourse which is not

the true arena of this. the second is the master of the new technologies. it's like me talking and using a mic and having an argument with my friend back there without one. i would be heard and she would not. so empowerment is the solution to this. and for this we need to engage new dynamics that would convince people who are professionals in this domain to join and i think that what happened last month last month as a matter of fact triggered some of those initiatives. the third factor is the counter

narrative. counter narrative is very important because it tackles the dimension and we need as i said in the beginning to be able to do so these are the characteristics that we all aspire to and i'd like to congratulate the council to having triggered these initiatives of steady initiatives from those complimentary perspectives. >> thank you. >> thank you. >> before opening up the discussion, let me just pose one additional question for you. the efforts that you have outlined are primarily in the

sense of trying to prevent the spread of violent extremist ideologies or so counter the argument but there are unfortunately some however small a number that have already gone over to the other side and you have given us hope that at some point in the future, they'll be defeated and then we have these people that went over and one aspect is perhaps we haven't talked about and invite you to say a few words about is what to do with reintegrating those that have gone over and converting them back if you will. just a year ago his majesty the king went to who many people don't know but used to preach at the mosque in hamburg that the

9/11 attackers went to. he's not very well-known but there's others of course. could you talk about the process of bringing back these people. >> thank you. i would like to come back to one question. the seeds are here and those three dimensions i mentioned need to be in it to stop the spreading of those seats because they grow in processes there and especially as he said, if we do not integrate the other languages socioeconomic and other dimensions to stop the process but the seeds are there and they will definitely continue to spread unless they're even more efficient.

more appealing reality that would rise and give some other venues to this. reintegration is capital. this is what i was eluding to when i said tigers need to be recruited to talk to tigers. and it's disease in comprehension and understanding and we need to present like when we're trying to produce water that's polluted you need pure water in exchange to be picked up instead of the other water. this water should be delicious. should be there.

this will allow the picking up of this initiative. we were inspired by what was happening in the addiction field. the most efficient agent to come back were the former adikts and those people once recruited and once adopted the conviction to do and this is the same for the foreign fighters. i recommend we develop professionals that would work with those people rather than just put them in jail. we definitely need to extract the networks and the names and to prevent the dangers but also we need this pile of work to be

done as well. they will be efficient. this is what you have witnessed in morocco with many of those former advisors in morocco. we have those undercover operating very efficiently in this field. but this is the developments of curriculums. once you follow up the experience of former addicts you can see that the curriculums and training provided to those people are not the simplest but very fruitful. >> all right. let's open it up for questions. if you'd wait for the microphone to come to you and be so kind as

to identify yourself as well. >> hello thank you so much for your comments and the information you have given us today. i'm from american university. my students are here. i have a question because you mention the religious education. re-education counter narratives but what have they done in terms of economic empowerment and development? you mentioned people obviously might be drawn to some of the messages of the violent groups such as you don have a job. come join us. we will make you work for us. so can you talk a little bit specifically about what have they done in terms of economic empowerment for both women and men in morroco and how does rule of law change and what project has been more accurate in the past years and finally my third question, i'm sorry, it's about funding so we know that a lot of

funding that goes to violent groups such as asus comes through a lot of countries through internet or organizations in different countries. can you tell us what morocco has done. everybody is important and we all agree upon that. the hope. and the future. and 203, it's a new initiative which is the national initiative

of sustainable development and this initiative started in the most deprived areas. and the word doom and other areas and cities and very important fonts were mobilized for this issue. if you asked my opinion how was it governed? i would say not in the most perfect manner. but it started and now we are aware that it didn't go as it should be going and this is why a new great responsible lady was appointed by his majesty to follow up this along with an

observatory initiated for this purpose to make the follow up in details and to not make this money be spent on areas virtual projects. >> it has taken also some energy and some work but the process is there and the awareness is there. architecture is one of the factors when we do build cities without playgrounds, without gardens, without green spots. definitely this generates frustration. humans need to be in proximity with beauty and as a matter of fact this is the bottom line of any religion. beauty and happiness. if some religion or form of it

is generated in frustration and anger, this means simply that it was not understood in the right proper way. so this dimension which is the dimension of beauty and what we call in morocco the places of life. and descent education and descent prosperity that would be realistic but yet optimized and produce some service in this dimension. young people need to play. they need to have fun. they need to learn and interact and we need to assist them with this but making it theirs and not dictating what needs to be

done. also funding creativity. the most famous of those funds is the mohammed v foundation. creativity with our ladies of course. she is doing a wonderful job in this regard. we're not there yet but the work started and we're trying to do our best. funding is of course economic intelligence is one of the forms of efficiency in any approach. if we lack this form of intelligence, it is very

dangerous dangerous. this is why we do our question about low and three years ago a commission was lounged to reform justice and the system of justice and this is a great heavy work of course. but we had texts about combatting terrorism and having the right to follow up the data in bank accounts and so on to discover those activities and i can say that we have demantled some initiatives in funding al qaeda before. thank you very much. i'm with moroccan american center. you made clear today in your

presentation that what we have here is a battle of ideas at the end of the day. i fear that there is a certain skepticism both in the united states and in europe about the prospects of winning this battle of ideas. in part because i think it's not very visible to people here in the u.s. or in europe what it is that people are doing to combat this muslim idea. what do you think can be done to provide encouragement to people in the u.s. and europe that indeed, you are tackling this battle of ideas at home? >> simply say an open invitation to anyone who desires to come by and see. and maybe give some piece of

advice to many rights of the process. but talking ideas it is definitely based on training. on time investment. and money investment. and also engineering of the approachers because you can not conduct a reflection on a problem that would take from you as an individual 250 years and conduct it in that way. the governments dimension as all the think tanks you know is a very crucial dimension because this is why in think tanks we're talking about person years and a work that would be delivered without taking 300 person years.

then it was outsourced and done by many that collaborated and given birth to the products so the governance is very important. definitely indicates the crucial necessity to know how to ask your question. we need processes to be able to verify if the questions are really rightly posed because sometimes you can ask or pose a wrong question and it won't work on providing an answer to it and it will take from you years and thousands, maybe millions of dollars without any results. so this link which is how to ask and pose the questions is very crucial. talking about ideas.

what made that appealing is that they just came to those dreams dignity, unity and purity and hijacked them and formed a geographical factual tangible piece of land and using the chaos to market the fact that they're doing it and providing unity andty and purity and this is islam without hypocrisy. those are ideas at the end of the day. so we need to provide counter balances via ideas as well. and this definitely passes through asking the right questions and having the descent, efficient capacities to answer those questions.

then implementation-wise, this definitely takes some channels. because to communicate an idea you cannot, in think tanks, we're talk about cold meat. you cannot produce an idea and leave it on the shelves. you need to market it and to market ideas you need to have some disposals to do so and it takes also some ideas. this cannot transcend the capacity of the free world. the muslim world could be a free partner in this but we need to be aware that those are at the end of the day ideas that are being pushed throughout the fibers and invading psyches of young, desperate youngsters. and of course candidates to be

recruited by those ideas. >> thank downof those ideas. >> my question is i don't know about asking the same question as the person before me but in a nonmuslim country, such as the u.s. or other european nations, how do you combat the rising number of fighters going to syria and iraq joining daesh? because i know you mentioned morocco has a lot of programs to educate young scholars and imams but what about those that don't have a muslim background or muslim system in their country? >> yeah. thank you for this very timely

question because this requires another narrative. it is not because the context is different. but this definitely passes true the discourse that is being adopted by daesh to recruit among those people. they use guilt for this. they will talk about colonialism, they will talk about the invasion of the west to the rest of the world and that you as free citizens of the west, you need to do your mea culpa and join and serve in the ranges of freedom soldiers to free the world. we need to demystify such discourse and produce

counternarratives that will definitely face those items that are used to recruit youngsters from the west as well. >> and the challenge now, of course is the power of social media. and if you look at even recently these two young -- well teenagers who went through turkey to join isis and syria, they were influenced by social media and it's a big, big problem. i mean, as you point out social media has no pa ramrameters. there's a big discussion, even in the private sector of trying to shut down twitter accounts. and, as was mentioned, it's not just isis, it's solvists, all sorts of other nonstate actors who have really active social media accounts. they have millions of followers. some have 12 million followers.

it's almost uncontrollable, unfortunately. but it's through this kind of messaging. and as was pointed out, how do you counter that? it's a big challenge because their microphone, to use your metaphor, is much more powerful than anybody else's microphone but a big problem with social media. >> of course. of course. >> right here? >> thank you for the presentation. i would like to ask you if there are any institutional corporations in the region to produce what you have so right fully called this conceptual and intellectual to fight the ideology of dchlaesh. i also agree with you when you say it's no longer for a tiger to roar if you can't be heard through social media. so what is being done to close

this gap this apparent gap and know-how in the use of social media, precisely? thank you. >> of course it sounds like your second part of the question, it's computer engineering, simply. we need our unit of computer engineering in our universities throughout the world to be aware of those challenges. and definitely relooked at programs to fit in the new challenges and the new context. so it's a professional work. yes, passion is present in all of the initiatives but it's professional and needs to be funded and it needs to be reengineered to respond to those challenges. of course the elements of

appeal is crucial here. you can have the most professional people in the world in social media but if their discourse is not appealing, they will be beaten because you can have some very simple tools and monitorings but yet appealing. this would definitely beat the most professional if they are not appealing. as for your first part of the question, i cannot pretend that now in the region there are some serious work about deconstructing the discourse and providing counternarratives as efficiently as we would hope it to be but we are at least trying to do our share of the work. at least let's say it's possible. or the american very efficient

slogan yes, we can. >> thank you very much dr. abbadi. we are partnering with you in morocco and share the perspective that you're bringing today. when we use this word counternarrative, we're often mistaking it for a narrative that is trying to demonize the other side and that's what is refreshing with what you're saying, that the people attracted to daesh are trying to respond to real needs for dignity and unity, et cetera. and my question, thus is how can we continue this effective work in a context where other actors acting in the same environment are choosing to use violent or kinetic force and actually further sort of demonizing and inadvertently attributing the narrative that

attracts more people to these groups? so how do we continue and ensure there is effectiveness in what we are doing to address these causes juxtapose with other actors using violent force? >> thank you. success has a tremendous, tremendously delicious taste. once we do taste it we get addicted to it. so in such mega initiatives we definitely need to generate some samples to be tasted and this by f fractioning the job, the work, make it possible to taste some of the outcomes of what you are doing because it allows you to gain confidence about what you are doing whereas if you just let it grow and grow without presenting samples to be tasted,

then it will be very hard to continue and to persevere and this is why the approach should be based on this. to make it possible to vulnerize and measure to indicateors and how successful we are and this requires sustainability in the job. >> thank you very much. please now join me in thanking not just dr. abbadi but as well mr. bouaida for their time today. last metaphor of taste if there's any left there should

be some moroccon delicacy outsideout but please enjoy. she was considered modern for her time, called mrs. president by her detractors and outspoken about her views on slavery and women's rights. she provides a unique window into colonial life. abigail adams sunday night at 8:00 p.m. eastern on "first ladies influence and image," examining the public and private lives of the first ladies and their influence on the presidency. sunday's sundays at 8:00 p.m. on c-span 3. c-span's new book is now available, "first ladies"

providing lively stories of these fascinating women creating an illuminating and aspiring read. it's available as a hardcover or e-book through your online book seller. tonight on c-span 3, the state department inspector general discusses the foreign policy's inner workings in a senate hearing. we'll talk to jennifer lawless about young people's engagement in politics and, later part of a summit of new hampshire republicans, including remarks by senator kelly ayotte and donald trump. the state department general testified at a senate hearing about the department's efficiency and effectiveness. his office has begun an inquiry into former secretary of state hillary clinton's use of a

personal e-mail server. georgia senator david perdue chairs on the summit. this is an hour. both of us are in order so we'll proceed. this hearing of the subcommittee on state department and usaid management international operations and bilateral

international development. i'd like to begin by welcoming our witness inspector general of the state department and broadcasting board of governor steve lenick. i understand you changed your schedule to be here today and we look forward to your testimony. the oig is dedicated to assessing the state department's programs and making recommendations to strengthen its integrity and accountability. as such, the oig is dedicated to detecting and preventing waste, fraud, abuse and mismanagement. today's hearing will be an important opportunity to examine state oig's mission and oversight efforts, your new initiatives and to hear about any challenges that you face in carrying out your mission. it has come to our attention that there are a number of things that we in congress can do to help you in your job. i look forward to discussing those with you this morning and to get your insights. as you may know chairman corker

is drafting and passing into law the first state department reauthorization bill in 13 years. we certainly welcome your suggestions. with that, i'd like to thank and recognize senator kaine and look forward to working with you on these important issues. senator kaine. >> thank you, mr. chair and thanks to our witness steve len nick. we do begin the hearing as part of a state of hearing about state department authorization. we haven't done this in over a decade so it's very important that we get to this work and today's hearing is part of that effort. thank you for the testimony today and testimony before other senate committees recently. and i also want to highlight your service as an assistant u.s. attorney in virginia from 1999 to 2006. you have a long and distinguished track record as a public servant. oigs serve a central and critical role in holding government agencies and officials accountable to citizens. there is a trend towards use of

oigs, not just in the federal government but in state and local governments as well which is very positive. one of the newest state ig offices was created in virginia in 2011 and i look forward to your assessment of your office's strengths and priorities and challenges based on your 19 months as service to the department of state. i know that you've highlighted a couple of issues in your testimony and i'm particularly interested in ongoing coordination of oco accounts used in iraq and afghanistan and elsewhere and i want to make sure that we can discuss what we can do together to ensure that the department of state is complying with and implementing important oig recommendations. but thanks again for your service, your testimony today as we work towards the broader state department reauthorization. thank you, mr. chairman. >> thank you. and then we're going to hear from steve len nick.

mr. len nick? >> chairman perdue, ranking member kaine, thank you for allowing me to testify. today i'll be addressing four topics. first, i'm going to stop by giving you an overview of oig's missions and priorities. second, i'm going to describe new initiatives my staff and i have put into place as i was sworn in almost 19 months ago. and i'm going to talk about the impact of oig's work. let me start with an overview. second, i'm going to describe some new initiatives my staff and i have put into place since i was sworn in almost 19 months

ago. next, i'm going to discuss some of the most significant challenges facing oig, specifically, and the department as a whole. and finally, i'm going to talk about the impact of oig's work. let me start with an overview. because oig's focus is on the operations and work of the state department and the bbg, its inspectors, auditors, investigators and evaluators focus on u.s. government operations worldwide, involving more than 72,000 employees and 280 overseas missions along with oversight of the departments and the bbg's significant domestic operations. but our office is unique from others because oig has historically, and as required by law, served as the department of states inspection arm. let me turn to priorities. first, protecting people who work in the department is our top priority. oig has inspected physical security at overseas posts for years. however, since the september 2012 attacks on u.s. diplomatic facilities and personnel in benghazi, libya, oig has stepped up its oversight efforts related to security. there is no doubt the department has made progress in improving overseas security. nonetheless, challenges still remain. through our inspection and audit work, we continue to find notable security deficiencies, placing at risk our posts and personnel. second, oig has enhanced its efforts to oversee the department's management of contracts and grants, which total approximately $10 billion in 2014. contract and grant management deficiencies, including lack of training, weak oversight and inadequate monitoring have come

to light repeatedly in oig's audits, inspections and investigations over the years. lastly, we continue to be very concerned about the department's management of i.t. security. oig's assessments of the department's efforts to secure its i.t. infrastructure have found significant recurring weaknesses, including inadequate controls around who may access and manipulate systems. i now turn to new oig initiatives. since joining the oig, my staff and i have implemented a number of new practices intended to enhance the effectiveness of our work. we have adopted the practice of issuing management alerts and management assistance reports in order to flag high-risk issues requiring immediate attention. another new initiative has been our creation of a new office in oig, the office of evaluations and special projects, also known as esp. this office complements the work of oig's other offices by focusing on high-risk, special projects and evaluations of pressing concern to the

department, the congress and to the american people. we also have enhanced our efforts to identify and refer appropriate cases to the department for suspension and debarment. next i would like to address two significant challenges facing oig that i believe impede oig's ability to conduct effective oversight. first, although the inspector general act requires oig to be independent, my i.t. infrastructure lacks independence because it is largely controlled by the department. while we have no evidence that our data has been compromised, the fact that the contents of our network may be accessed by large numbers of department administrators puts us at unnecessary risk and does not reflect best practices on i.t. independence within the ig community. second, unlike other igs, my office is not always afforded the opportunity to investigate allegations of criminal or serious administrative misconduct by department employees. department components, including the bureau of diplomatic

security, are not required to notify oig of such allegations that come to their attention. if we are not notified, we have no opportunity to investigate. this arrangement is inconsistent with the inspector general act and appears to be unique to the department. the departments of defense, justice, homeland security, the treasury and the irs, agriculture and interior defer to their igs for the investigation of criminal or serious misconduct by their employees. their igs have the right to decide whether to conduct the investigations themselves or refer them back to the agency components. particularly where senior officials are involved, the failure to refer allegations of misconduct to an independent entity like the oig necessarily creates a perception of unfairness as management is seen to be investigating itself. finally, i would like to close by talking about the impact of our work. in my written testimony, i quantified some financial metrics demonstrating our positive return on investment to taxpayers.

but financial statistics do not adequately reflect some of our most significant impacts -- the safety and security of people and the integrity of the department's operations and reputation. those are key motivators for our employees, many of whom are on the road for long periods of time or would serve for extended periods at dangerous posts. i am honored to serve alongside and lead them. in conclusion, chairman perdue, ranking member kaine, members of the subcommittee, thank you again for the opportunity to testify before you today. i take seriously my statutory requirement to keep the congress fully and currently informed, and i look forward to your questions. >> thank you, mr. linick. i appreciate your comments. we will begin -- i will begin the questioning today. we'll have seven minutes. senator kaine and i are the two members here. as the members join us, we'll have them engage as well. my first question follows some testimony that you gave about 2012 and the attacks there on u.s. diplomatic personnel in

benghazi. the oig since then has stepped up its oversight efforts, as you testify. can you describe what those efforts are to improve the physical security? and also, how do you go about evaluating the security of other embassies around the world? >> senator, we actually assess security in two ways. first of all, we've looked at security from a systemic point of view. in a 2013 report on the accountability review board process, we looked at how the department implements accountability review board recommendations across the board. the accountability review board, as you know, is convened by the secretary, where there's loss of life, substantial injury, et cetera. we found in that report that after reviewing 126

recommendations from 12 different arbs between darus alum and ben you a benghazi, 40% of the recommendations were repeat recommendations pertaining to security, intelligence-gathering and training. and we found the reason why that occurred is because of a lack of sustained commitment over the years by department principals in making sure recommendations were implemented. in fact, we found many of the same recommendations in the accountability review board for the benghazi to be the same recommendations. >> i'm sorry, would that go back years, that practice of having recommendations like that, you know, the past decade or so? >> yes, sir. we looked at 14 years worth of recommendations over 12 accountability review boards. >> okay. >> and we found that in order to properly implement those recommendations, accountability had to be at the highest levels

of the department. we've made recommendations to that effect. we also look at security on a more targeted basis. as you know, we conduct inspections of posts around the world. every single inspection we do of an embassy involves a security inspection. we have highly qualified security inspectors who look at everything from whether or not the walls are high enough to whether or not there's a proper setback to whether their emergency action plans are properly in order. and we do that across the board, and you know, we do continue to find deficiencies when we go to various locations. the other way we do it is through our audits, and we do audits of various programs. for example, we reviewed the local guard force that protects our embassies, whether or not they're properly vetted by security contractors who hire

the guards and whether they are properly overseen by our regional security officers who have responsibility for making sure that they're doing their job. so, those are the ways in which we conduct our inspections. >> how often do you do those inspections? >> well, we do about eight -- let's see, every eight years, we're able to perform a domestic inspection, and every eleven years an overseas inspection. we try to get to as many locations as possible. but really, we use a risk-based approach. so, we do a survey and we find out if there are problems at any particular posts. we also look at a post and assess whether it's receiving a large amount of money for foreign assistance. if it's a high-threat post, we will take that into consideration as to whether or not to go to a particular facility.

and now that we have responsibility for joint oversight of the operation inherent resolve, we look at posts that play a role in that effort. >> well, i just returned from a trip out there, and i can tell you that the state department people are an amazing group, dedicating their careers to multiple assignments around the world, changing every few years. i was very impressed with their morale and their effectiveness out there. i'm encouraged by your testimony. i did have one question, though. you testified that you're having trouble with the five-year inspection requirement. help me understand what's involved in that as well. >> so, the foreign services act requires our office to conduct inspections once every five years. and i just want to just step back and make one observation about that. we are unique among the ig community in that we have a statutory requirement to conduct these inspections, because we're also doing audits and investigations.

so, that, obviously, reduces our ability to do some of the other work. but on the five-year inspections, we're not able to meet that requirement. we simply don't have the staff. but i really think that a better approach, frankly, is to do it on a risk-based approach like we're doing it now. we try to get out to posts where there are truly, you know, where there are truly issues, whether we think they are financial issues or some of the other issues that i just mentioned, but we're not able to get out every five years, and it would take an extraordinary increase in staff and resources in order to be able to do that. >> all right. let me change gears just a minute. as we work on this reauthorization bill in the full committee, what opportunities for increased effectiveness do you see? and this is a long-winded answer. i'll have time to come back. i've got about a minute left, so if you would give me just the highlights here, in terms of

improving effectiveness at the state department. if you had the top two or three priorities, what would you recommend, based on all of the work that you've been doing? >> in terms of items that would help the ig perform its job? >> right, right. >> so, i would say there are two issues that come to mind. number one is our ability to get early notification of misconduct involving serious or criminal activity and our ability to investigate that, at least decide whether we are going to investigate that and return it back to the department. so, that's sort of the number one. the second issue is what i mentioned in my oral testimony, is i.t. independence. we really need to be independent from the department. we have a lot of sensitive information on our network. so, i would say those two things would be on the top of my list. >> okay. well, thank you, mr. linick. my time is up. i'll yield to senator kaine. thank you. >> thank you, mr. chairman. i think my questions are going to go significantly more than seven, so i'll just do seven and then we'll probably have second

rounds. and mr. linick, i'll take them in the order that you did. i'm going to go missions and priorities, sort of new missions and then challenges. on the missions and priorities, i'm glad that your first one is protecting embassy personnel. like chairman perdue, i've been so proud of the people that i've met. you know when you go to the facilities that we have around the world, you really are proud of the people. i went to the u.s. embassy in beirut. and when you see the memorial there to all of the folks in the state department who lost their lives in the '80s and '90s, it's very sobering, and the sacrifices are sometimes more mundane than that, but they're sacrifices of being away from family and serving in tough places. so, that's got to be number one. your written testimony suggests that you think that the focus on security improvements has not been one that is, i guess been subject to sustained oversight

from the state department leadership. i think that's the word that you used, in particular with respect to arb recommendations following benghazi. but i think more generally, when there are recommendations about security improvements, it sounds as if what you're testifying is that there's sort of really sharp focus on it, but then maybe wavering attention because of other priorities. could you elaborate on that a little bit, because that should be all of our concern. >> let me say this, i think the department has taken significant steps in addressing our security recommendations. in fact, we are currently reviewing the department's compliance with the benghazi arb recommendations. there are 29 of them. >> yep. >> so, i'm encouraged by the steps they're taking. in terms -- >> is that the kind of thing where you'll issue a report about, we've reviewed compliance with the benghazi arb recommendations and here's our assessment? is that foreseen? and when might that happen? >> yes, sir. we are actually in progress with

that report, and we should be issuing something probably in the next couple of months on that. >> okay. >> but in terms of implementation of recommendations, i think you got it right when you said, what happens is, if they're not implemented from the top, they tend to be delegated out to the bureaus, and there's a dispersion of authority. so, implementation, the responsibility is delegated down the chain. with the changes of administration, institutional shift, there tends not to be the follow-through that you would want to see, especially with the benghazi -- excuse me, the arb recommendations over the years, and there hasn't been a loop back to the principals, the deputy secretary, the secretary on the progress of implementation of those recommendations. so, what we're trying to say is, look, accountability for those recommendations needs to be at

the deputy secretary level. and i know the department is working on that and we're assessing that right now. >> one of the areas that i was very concerned about in reading the arb report -- and you may just want to highlight this briefly, because if you're going report about this, we'll get the full report later -- but is the use of private contract security at some of the embassies or consulate facilities, whether there is sufficient vetting when private contract security is used. i know in benghazi, some of the private contract security were local folks. they were on sort of a work stoppage because of debates about pay that, you know, could have led them to be less than, i mean, frankly, less than focused on doing the job because of some dispute with the state department over that. how was your review going on this question of do we appropriately vet local security when we hire them abroad? >> so, that is an area of concern to me, because all it

takes is one bad actor who's guarding our embassy for something to happen. and we did do some work on vetting security guards. we looked at six of them at various posts around the world, including some high-threat posts, and we found that all of them were not thoroughly vetting security guards. and again, you know, you have to make sure these guards don't have criminal background, criminal histories, and there's a whole panoply of qualities that you need to check. so, not only do our -- not only do the companies who hire these guards have responsibilities, but also the department does in making sure they know who's guarding their embassies. so, we found problems with that, and this is an issue which we're pursuing. we're currently looking at the employment, how vetting is going with the locally employed folks at our embassies as well. so, this is just -- this is a constant issue that i think deserves a lot of attention, because i've said, all it takes is one bad actor. >> is the responsibility for doing the vetting of local

security fully on the state department's shoulders, or do the marine security guard units that are assigned to diplomatic posts have any responsibility over that role? >> no, the responsibility is really on both the contractors who are hired, but ultimately, it's the regional security officer who needs to make sure that he's satisfied with the guards that are selected. >> it segues nicely into your second mission, which is managing contracts and grants. i mean, security contracts are just a kind of contract. i'm on the armed services committee, and we have a readiness committee hearing this afternoon where acquisition reform and managing contracts and grants is going to be the topic. so, i think this is a big-picture issue. and i notice that the next mission and priority you have of your three is maintaining i.t. security, and i would suspect that that may also tie into the managing contracts and grants, because i would imagine that

some of that within the state department is done by outside contractors. am i right about that? >> i think that's right, yes. >> i've often heard it said in the northern virginia contracting community, which is pretty big, there's a lot of general concerns about sort of the acquisition and grant management workforce. so, to what extent, you know, to the extent that you have an opinion about this, in managing contracts and grants or maintaining i.t. security to the extent that it's contracted out, are there issues kind of on the personnel side about the size, the qualifications, you know, the numbers or the qualifications of our acquisition workforce that manage these contracts and grants? >> well, i think that -- i guess there are two issues here. we have definitely identified issues with the folks who are supposed to be managing the contracts at the department.

there's not enough of them. and we're doing one audit right now where we found that a contractor was submitting invoices, but the invoices -- there weren't enough contracting personnel within the state department to oversee those invoices, so they were just basically signing off without validating them and double-checking them. so, there's that issue. there's an issue of lack of training. as well, we need contracting officers, grant officers who understand all the rules and so forth. we have a problem with the rotation. our rsos, our regional security officers at posts are also responsible for overseeing contracts and grants and they're rotating in and out, so there's a lack of continuity there. so, there's sort of a whole host. and there's also another significant issue is the maintenance of our contract files. we recently did a report where we looked at contracts over the last six years and found that there were $6 billion worth of contracts that were either incomplete or missing. now, since then, department has found some of those contracts. but you know, if you don't have the contract files, if you're a

contracting officer, how do you ensure that the government is getting the goods that it's bargained for? >> i'm over time, but i'm going to come back to this when i come back. i'll pick up right there when i come back. mr. chair. >> thank you, ranking member. senator johnson, you're up. >> thank you, mr. chairman. inspector general linick, in your testimony, you're talking about a review that your offices has conducted. i don't believe -- was that under your guidance on the arb with benghazi? >> no, the benghazi arb completed right before i got there. >> but you have reviewed the process of that arb, is that correct? >> well, since i arrived, we've undertaken work to see how the department is complying with the benghazi arb recommendations, the other 29, how are they doing, what progress have they made. >> that's what i glean from your testimony. do you have any plans whatsoever of still trying to get some

answers to a number of unanswered questions that certainly i have in terms of, you know, who knew what when, whatever happened to security quests, where were those security quests denied? where were the requests denied where security was turned down in benghazi? are you taking a look at that because the arb has not answered those questions. we've had several probes and i know there's a special committee in the house trying to get answers. but we're very frustrated. this is 2 1/2 years since the tragedy at benghazi and we still don't know some very basic answers to some very basic questions. >> well, there have been a lot of probes, as you've mentioned, on this topic. we have been forward-looking. we've taken our resources and tried to figure out whether or not the department is currently complying with security guidelines and so forth and whether they are implementing the arb recommendations. that's the direction we have been going. >> which is important. you know, obviously, we have to

look forward. we need to make sure that, you know, these tragedies don't occur in the future. but from my standpoint, one of the primary functions of the inspector general's office is not only that transparency, and not only the recommendations that are forward-looking, but also looking back and being the whole people accountable. and i'm just not aware that, you know, i think the primary actors in the benghazi instance have been held accountable. do you believe so? >> you know, we didn't look at that. obviously, the benghazi accountability review board made a number of conclusions on that. again, there have been a lot of reports, a lot of probes on that. you know, i'm happy to work with the committee if you think i should be looking at something in particular -- >> oh, i do. >> as i said, i've been trying to take our limited resources and make sure that, at least try to make sure that we don't have another tragedy again through our inspections and so forth. obviously, we'll never be able to stop them completely, but that's --

>> i guess one of the things i'd like to do is we had deputy secretary kennedy in front of our homeland security committee, subcommittee. this was in the last congress. and i took that occasion, because he refused the invitation to testify before this committee on the same day. so, i took that opportunity to ask him a series of questions, which i did not get very forthright answers in the committee. and then we submitted those questions for the record, which we have not gotten any reply to whatsoever. so, i'm not quite sure how we can hold an administration accountable, how we can hold those officials that were at the heart of the matter, that made the key decisions that i think, you know, that were really derelict in their duty that resulted in the death of four americans, if we don't know who made the decisions. how do we actually hold people accountable? >> look, accountability is obviously part of our job, and we try to hold people accountable in the department through a variety of mechanism, through investigations, our inspections, audits. the three -- there are three areas which i think pertain to

accountability. one is accountability for implementing arb recommendations over time, and that's something that we have been focusing on heavily. the other is accountability for making sure our contracts and grants are overseen properly and our contracting offices are held accountable. the other area's making sure that there's accountability for the i.t. network, which has huge vulnerabilities. >> well, as you're aware, i'm certainly highly supportive of strengthening the office of inspector general, your ability to access information. i'd like to be able to strengthen congress's ability to actually get information from this administration. one of the things i will do is we'll submit a letter to you asking those exact same questions, and maybe you can have greater success in your role within that department as the independent auditor, the office of inspector general. maybe you can get some of these questions that not only i think you should be asking, not only

should i think the administration be asking, not only do i think this congress should be asking, but i think they're questions to answers that the american people deserve. the american people deserve to know the truth. they haven't got it yet. so, i'll submit that letter to your office and i would appreciate the help of your office in trying to get those answers for the american people. >> yes, sir. >> thank you, mr. linick. thank you, mr. chairman. >> thank you. mr. linick, we're going to go start a second round. i know the ranking member's got other questions. i've got a few here. i'd like to change directions and talk about the i.t. point that you brought up in your testimony this morning. you mentioned that there have been attacks on the state department's network and that that compromises the ig's work relative to being on the same network. can you talk about that in a little bit more detail and talk about what you're doing to protect your independence and whether you need to be totally independent on a separate network? i mean, what is your recommendation there?

what are you doing to protect ig's independence? >> i think that your point is well taken to the extent that the department suffers from attacks. we suffer from attacks because we're on the same network. we've taken a number of steps since i've been in office. first of all, we've asked the department to agree not to come on to our system without asking permission. and we have finally gotten that agreement from the department. but we need more than that, because right now we are sort of in a gated community, if you will, where we rent -- our i.t. system is, we rent our i.t. system, and the i.t. folks at the department have the keys to our i.t. system. so, they really have unfettered access to the system. if they wanted to, they could read, modify, delete any of our work. we have sensitive grand jury materials, we have long -- >> i'm sorry to interrupt. how far down in the state department organization does

that access -- is that access provided? is that throughout the organization or -- >> well, it's state department administrators have access to our system as well as any other system. >> so, during an investigation, your files are open to the hierarchy of the state department? >> well, they're not open, but if an administrator wanted to -- and again, we don't have evidence of this -- if an administrator wanted to, he or she could come on to our system with their access. that's the problem. they come on to our system as it is with security patching and all, for legitimate reasons. >> so, how is that done in other departments? >> well, at the very basic level, departments differ in the way they handle it. generally, you know, there's a firewall or some sort of form of protection against that type of intrusion, because an ig just can't protect confidentiality of witnesses and information if there is a possibility. now, the other way some igs do it, and this is the way i did it

when i was the inspector general at the federal housing finance agency, i had a completely separate system and network with my own e-mail address. i was completely off the department's grid. >> what keeps you from doing that here? >> well, i need money and i need the department's cooperation. i would like to be completely separate from the department to ensure the integrity of our system, but i also need the department to give us access to the same systems that we have now, and i've actually broached this topic with the secretary last friday and deputy secretary higginbottom. >> do you have evidence that the state department's network has been attacked, and does that affect you guys? >> there has been -- there's evidence that it's been attacked and it has affected us. i can't really go into details because of the nature of the information. >> i understand that completely.

so, what are you doing to protect the independence and how can you, short of separating yourself on a separate network, which takes money, as you say, to protect the independence of your investigations? >> well, we've taken the first step in getting the department to agree not to come on to our system, but the next step is developing a firewall around our network. and again, this really depends on the department's willingness to do this quickly with us. the other thing we're trying to do -- we have published four, what's called fisma reports, over the last four years, where we found recurring weaknesses in the department's system, and that's given us a lot of pause, because i'm not so sure, if we have problems in the department's system, that obviously leads to vulnerabilities in our own system. >> so, let me just be clear.

are you -- don't let me put words in your mouth, but are you getting cooperation from the organization, the state department organization with regard to this particular i.t. issue, relative to independence? i think independence is critical if you're going to be objective in your evaluations. you've got to have access, but you also have to be protected in terms of the information confidentiality, as you just said. is it a cooperative attitude that you're seeing? i mean, is this something that's moving forward? can we bank on the fact that this is going to get taken care of or do we need to talk to the other members of leadership in the state department? >> well, i know that deputy secretary higginbottom is looking into this issue and she's been very receptive and helpful to us in general. i will say the process has been very slow. it took us months just to get the bureau of diplomatic security to sign an agreement not to come on to our system without approvals. and that's only in limited circumstances. so, it's a slow process, it's a big bureaucracy.

and so, i'm cautiously optimistic. >> well, good. i'm going to yield the rest of my time and allow -- or ask senator murphy to have access to his questions now at this point. thank you. >> thank you very much, mr. chairman. thank you for being here today. i note that your official title is inspector general for the u.s. department of state and the broadcasting board of governors, and so i wanted to ask you just a few questions as to the second appendage on your title. you know, the work of the bbg is perhaps more important now than ever as we're fighting very sophisticated propaganda campaigns from non-state actors like isis or boko haram, but also from state actors like russia in their efforts to try to essentially buy up press outlets all around their periphery. having an efficiently run

broadcasting board of governors and all of their constituent entities is critical to the work that we do abroad. and yet, the previous reports on both the work culture and the efficiency of the operation have been damning, to say the least. i mean, you very rarely get ig reports that are as straightforward as at least the 2012 report was about the work culture at the bbg, and you had a much older report, i think from 2004-2005, that talked a little about just tremendous levels of redundancy and duplication within the organization. so, i guess my question is open-ended. i would just be interested to hear any updates that you have on what follow-up there has been at the broadcasting board of governors following that 2012 report, whether you have information to suggest that the kind of inefficiencies that were identified in earlier reports still exists and whether that's

going to be a subject of further introspection or examination for your office moving forward? >> well, thank you for that question. the bbg, i would say, is a work in progress, because as you noted, we did issue some damning reports within the last couple of years, primarily focused on leadership. it's a part-time board. there are conflicts of interest. they didn't have a ceo. we recommended that they hire a ceo. apparently, the ceo has only been in place -- there has been a new ceo, but apparently, he's left. so, it's without a ceo again. there were morale problems. i must say, in the contracting and grant area there's room for improvement. we issued a report recently on their acquisitions, and we found violations of the antideficiency act, conflicts of interest, problems with their grants. so, it continues to be a

problem. i know that the new folks who are over there are trying to address these issues. and we're working with them on following through. we actually issued some recommendations on contract and grant management pertaining to the bbg, and they're actually required by the appropriations committee to respond to some of those recommendations. so, this is a work in progress. we're on it. and we'll keep the committee briefed on this issue. >> again, i sort of, you know, read it as two different sets of problems. you've got a leadership vacuum there that continues and leadership deficiencies, and then you've identified structural issues with respect to how they contract. and also, again, an older ig report talked about tremendous redundancies, duplication. you reference it as a work in

progress, which is often a way of talking about something that's slowly getting better but far too slowly. do you -- if you identify those two problems as distinct, is one getting better at a rate that's faster than the other? is one a more lingering and festering problem than the other? >> i would say i think the leadership issue is probably getting better at a faster rate. there's a new board member since we issued our report and so forth, and i think they're really trying to address those issues. i think the contracting issue is not so much a structural problem, but just complying with the rules, the federal acquisitions regulations, just doing it right. so, i know they're working on that as well. since we have a more recent report on that, i would say that's probably the more pressing issue at the moment. >> there's a bipartisan group of us in the house and the senate

working on bbg reform. be hopeful to work with you and the folks that have worked this book of business as we move forward. thank you very much, mr. chairman. >> thank you. i think the ranking member has a few more questions. >> great. thank you. mr. linick, i just want to pick up where i left off. we were talking about the management of contracts, and you know, maybe some i.t. contracts. you were talking about in some instances, doesn't seem to be enough management personnel. do you reach a conclusion about that? is there any degree to which that is because of the sequester? is it because, you know, choices have been made internally not to hire -- you know to hire more of one staff and less contract acquisition folks? what's your conclusion about that? >> you know, i think it's a matter of -- i mean, we don't have any work to support an opinion one way or the other whether they're having problems

hiring folks. from the work we've done, i would say it's really a cultural issue, because contracts and grants have skyrocketed in the department over the last five, ten years, and the department i think is having problems keeping up with it and they're trying to do a better job and there have been improvements and they've accepted many of our recommendations in this area. so, i think it's an issue of priorities and where they want to put resources. i think it's a cultural issue. contract and grant management is not like diplomacy, so. >> yeah, that's not why anybody decides, i want to go to the state department. >> right. >> right. i had the same issue as governor of my department of transportation. they used to do a lot of projects and over time migrated to managing a lot of projects, but they didn't necessarily

migrate their skill set from project engineers to contract managers, so there was a common mismatch. maybe there's some of that going on. on your new mission, you talked about the use of management alerts and these management assessment reports that you do. >> i think they've responded very positively. the majority of our recommendations in our management alerts have been accepted and the department's been working on them. and the purpose of them is really two-fold. one is to stop the bleeding. you know, if we're in the middle of an audit, we don't want to wait until the end of the audit to tell the department, hey, you've got a problem because somebody is cheating you, so let's try to stop the bleeding before it happens. and then the second thing we've been trying to do is to the extent that we find issues and recommendations unimplemented over the years, the point of the management alerts is to try to repackage it and aim it at leadership, a different set of

leadership, maybe a higher set of leaders, and then also repackage the recommendations so they can be more broadly applied across the department. so, for example, on the contract management, we've asked the department to sample, do a sampling of their contract files to make sure the files are in order across the board, to consider putting more resources into it, to consider, to look at sort of how a work plan for personnel can be developed so they have enough grant officers and contracting officers. so, it has been well received. and in fact, the appropriations committee in their joint explanatory statement picked up on our recommendations and asked the department to respond to those recommendations, which they have. so, that really helped us out, having sort of congress's sort of endorsement behind the recommendations and support for complying with them. >> you did not flag this in your oral testimony in the new challenge category, but as i read your written testimony, i'd call oco a new challenge because it was kind of handed to you in 2014 along with d.o.d., and

what's the other agency? >> usaid. >> so talk a little bit about the work that you guys are doing together to get a handle on the oco expenditures. >> we have quite a stretch for our resources. we have operated united assistance for ebola and afghanistan and net resolve which is isil. we have been on the operation inherent resolve, we have been coordinating intensely for many months and we have accomplished a lot. we became official in december. the inspector general was appointed, and since then we have been coordinated very closely. we have a joint strategic plan that we published march 31st, which addresses how we're coordinating together. we are in the process of putting

together a quarterly report, which is going to be published some time at the end of april, and the way we set it up is operation resolve outlined nine lines of effort in the initiative to address isil, one being governance, another country messaging and there are others. and the way we split up our duties is to sort of -- state department is responsibility for some of the lines of effort, that would be within any wheel house. some of those lines of effort obtain to d.o.d., then they would do the audits and those. then we do them together. so we are jointly working on strategy. we are jointly working on strategy and program analysis and development and we are jointly working on publishing these reports. we meet regularly. i'm going to be on a trip to jordan and turkey to oversee how

the state department is addressing isil issues in those two areas. so it's been a robust, but difficult because we're taking it out of base. we don't have -- we don't have special resources for those. >> we may give d.o.d. oco but we haven't give you an oig oco, have we? let me switch to the third part of your testimony. challenges. the chair talked about the issue, but i want to focus on, too, the issue about not being given the same ability as other ig offices to investigate wrongdoing. i think that's an interesting one, and i know you're seeking assistance from us as we do the reauthorization. >> as i looked at a footnote in your testimony, incidents or allegations that can serve as grounds for disciplinary action or criminal prosecution will immediately be referred to the oig or the bureau of diplomatic security or comparable offices and exceptional circumstances, the undersecretary for management for state may designate an individual.

so there's sort of a requirement that if there's wrongdoing that fits in the category, either or potentially somebody else will be notified. what would the norm be, like in another agency, in your previous work as an inspector general? is it a dual reporting requirement? you know, report it to the diplomat and the oig? how would it normally -- kind of in a more normal way be structured? >> well, in those agencies that have a law enforcement component like ds so like in d.o.d. with law enforcement components and dhs and so forth their law enforcement components are required to notify them about allegations of serious or criminal misconduct. >> are required to notify the ig's office? >> correct. >> either by statute, or by regulation. and then the ig is -- has the discretion to decide whether it wants to take the cases or ship them back. and that's the norm.

and the reason that is because there are certain cases that may not be appropriately investigated by the host agency. so -- >> and so your request of us would be in a reauthorization that retry to structure that reporting language to the ig somewhat similar to the way d.o.d. would have it. >> exactly. where we're asking for what the other igs have in terms of legislation, and we would ask that if that's -- that you track that legislation, that would be what we would like. >> mr. chair, i have two more lines of questioning. can i go ahead? another change that you asked for, or actually, i'm not sure that you had this in your written testimony, but i want to make sure we understand. the congressional budget justification includes a request to change out personnel authorities can be exercised to expedite reemployment -- to support oversight of the oco operation. could you explain the rational e

for that request so we understand why you're requesting that. we want to be helpful if we can. >> so we have difficulties in our shop of hiring the right people with the right skills. to meet the demands of our mission. we have a unique mission that we have the inspection requirement. we need people to know how embassies run and securities. we have the three ocos. and we also have unanticipated special projects. like the accountability review board and numerous other projects that we have teams of people working on. so we're seeking more flexible hiring authorities generally. in terms of reemploying, annuitants, we're only able to hire part time. many are doing inspections, so

they can only work half a year. which creates tremendous lack of continuity. this and we have to hire more of them to get the job done. we would like to hire full-time. similarly, special general for iraq reconstruction, we have a special time hiring the folks. they have the skill sets, but they don't have competitive status. so we're looking for opportunities to grab them as well. >> that will be helpful to us as we tackle reauthorization. and finally the impact of your work. i found this kind of interesting. first paragraph you talk about the financial savings that you've achieved by implementation of reports. then these financial statistics don't adequately take into account assets and

recommendations to improve safety of people and facilities investigations that ensure department employees conduct themselves appropriately and our work to strengthen the integrity of the programs, operations and resources at the foundation of the department's ability to help ensure national security. ensure security. when i read that, i was kind of interested because when i was mayor of richmond, we had an auditor, and the auditor kind of looked at just the numbers. i guess the difference between the oig and the auditor is the oig is looking at the numbers, but also looking at the broader mission. as i kind of interpret that testimony, we're going to look at the numbers and find savings. but at the end of the day, there is a broader mission, and first is protecting security of the personnel, and making sure folks don't do things wrong without consequence, and also promoting national security, and that's really what determines the

success of an oig's office and what the priorities are. you want to make sure the priorities are in the right order. is that a fair read of your testimony? >> and this is to protect department personnel. they are most important asset in the department. they are really heros. the folks who are at these dangerous posts. senator purdue said earlier that they do yoem ands work. they do -- work. and we do need to protect them. and it's not just about the numbers. and we different from a lot of inspector generals in that we have the security mission, which makes the job so gratifying and great. and since benghazi, you've had to evacuate in calendar year 2014 the embassy in libya. and in calendar year 2015, have had to evacuate our embassy in yemen. these are not minor matters.

when the u.s. has to evacuate an embassy because of security conditions, like this is a big, big deal. and so that demonstrates as much incident were just complete lightning strike, not likely to secure again. we have to think they're going to be very important to all of us. correct? >> yes, sir. >> thank you, mr. chair. no other questions. >> very good questions. great answers. mr. linick, i just have one quick question here. and we can wrap this up. but i want to talk about your relationship to the line management, if you will, of the state department. one of the calls is you have security. you're looking at misconduct and the effectiveness of the state department itself because that affects all of the above. how would you rate the relationship of the ig, the state department, the state department leadership? are you getting what you need? you mentioned resources twice. talk to us just a little bit

about -- you said i.t. independence. you also talks about getting access to investigations to help you do a better job. i'm looking at really in this line of questioning, what have you found operationally inside a state department that we need to be aware of as we look at this reauthorization. >> well, in terms of the relationship with the department, i mean, i have a very good working relationship with the deputy secretary, and i meet with the secretary periodically as well. i just met with him last friday. and they are open to oversight. they recognize it's important, and they recognize the unique role of the i.g. so they've been responsive to resource investment, in both of the requests that i have in my testimony. they're aware of and they've been, you know, the deputy secretary has been working on. so i think that works well, and we also try to meet regularly

with other senior leaders in the department as well, so that relationship is important. to be an effective i.g. you need a good working relationship because we can't force them to comply with recommendations. in terms of operationally, you know i would say that the secure -- the implementation of the recommendations is something that's been a problem but the department is working on ago something we are monitoring. i think that they need to step up their oversite of contracts and grants. so i would say that is probably extremely important priority. and the i.t. infrastructure, we heard about hacking in the news and so forth. this is a very serious issue. there's a lot of sensitive information on the networks.

and we need to make sure the information security system is protected. to me, those are the top priorities. >> well, that's all i have. senator, do you have any questions? well, with that again, thank you for being here today. this has been very enlightening. we appreciate your insights, your experience, your work, your dedications that went into your statements. and the effectiveness of your work. you do hero's work as well. and i want to thank you for that. the record will remain open until the close of business on thursday, april 23rd, for any future submissions, if you would like. you may receive questions for other members in that period of time as well, and i would encourage you to answer those in the same manner that you've answered the ones here. and with that, this hearing is adjourned. thank you very much, mr. linick. >> thank you.

wednesday, the senate finance committee works on a u.s. trade bill, including fast track trade promotion authority, which would give the president leeway in negotiating international trade deals. live coverage begins at 10:45 eastern time on cspan 3. here are a few book festivals we are covering this spring on book tv. this weekend, we will be in maryland state capital foray knap list book festival. hearing from authors like alberto gonzales and james rise en. middle of may, we will cover the